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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:12 pm
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Location: Kerrville, TX
I'm wondering if there is difference between TKO and GardenSense Orange Oil? The mixing guidelines appear to be the same. I'm using it to make my own Anti-Feugo, and I've found the GardenSense for $30 per gallon, while the TKO is $80!! Why the difference?

And one other question - I've seen two different formulas for Anti-Fuego. One calls for equal parts Compost Tea, Molasses, and Orange Oil, while the other calls for 1 cup Compost Tea, One Cup Molasses, and 2 Tbs Orange Oil. Which one is it? I sure hope the 2Tbs recipe would work, as Orange Oil sure is pricey!! Thanks for your help!

Eric in Kerrville, TX

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:07 pm 
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I think the cost of the fancy bottle and marketing jacks up the TKO product.

2 ounces per gallon is right for the orange oil in Auntie Fuego.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 6:57 am 
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Thank you so very much for your reply!! I'm ordering today!

Smiles,
Eric

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:53 am 
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There appears to be an important practical difference between TKO and the GreenSense Citrus Oil product. Although both contain d-limonene, TKO contains emulsifiers that make it water soluble. The recent experiences of forum members, particularly dcluck, with the GreenSense product suggest that it is unemulsified high grade d-limonene. As such, it is virtually insoluble in water, which makes it fairly hard to use in its native state for the intended purposes of most on this forum. Users of the GreenSense product can test its solubility (in case GreenSense has changed/does change the formulation to include emulsifiers) by adding some to plain tap water in a clear glass. If it does not contain emulsifiers, the d-limonene will float and will form a distinct layer that is similar to what cooking oil would do in the same situation. Emulsified products, such as TKO and (presumably) Gardenville's orange oil product, form a milky white solution without a (or with a very little) separation layer. It is easy to see how unemulsified d-limonene would behave in a pump-up sprayer, spray bottle, cleaning bucket, or in a bucket used to drench fire ant mounds. In the case of the fire ant drench, a strong agitation immediately before application might disperse the d-limonene long enough to work. (I will not say that it is impossible that compost teas could contain natural emulsifying ingredients that could disperse the d-limonene. It isn't as easy to see separation in the murky tea environment, though.) Even with the added cost of an emulsifier, such as the coconut oil, the GreenSense product appears to be fairly economical. I think TKO is too highly engineered for economical bulk use in the garden, at least at retail prices. It is much better used as a cleaner.

There are many products and compounds that will emulsify d-limonene, but the simplest ways for the average homeowner are to add the coconut oil product that GreenSense sells for that purpose or to add ordinary "76 degree" coconut oil, soap, or detergent to the d-limonene. For those that mix their own, I believe it is best to mix the d-limonene with the emulsifier(s) before adding that mix to the water carrier. Those that want to use soap/detergent to dissolve the d-limonene and that don't want suds in product can try a low sudsing product--the Caldrea cleaners for example. D-limonene's solubility increases some with increasing water temperature, although that probably won't help most users much. From what I have seen, ordinary cooking oils don't work. 70% Rubbing Alcohol seems to work some, but not as well as the coconut oil (it may be that there is a concentration threshold for the alcohol). There may be other common household items that will work; if I find some, I'll post comments.

The idea that d-limonene must be emulsified in order to be used effectively in an aqueous environment raises some interesting questions. One is whether emulsified d-limonene and the raw product biodegrade at different rates. Another is to what extent the emulsifiers alone are responsible for the insecticidal properties of our garden applications of orange oil. I don't know what TKO uses to emulsify, but one guess is that it/they is/are esters, many of which have some pretty good sovent properties on their own.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:49 am 
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Location: Kerrville, TX
Thanks Enzym11 for the detailed answer. But, I now have another question! I found a local distributer of Erath Earth's Orange oil. It appears to me to be a pretty watery product, and I'm wondering if you know anything about it. I am going to test it's solubility when I get home. What worries me is that none of these companies give you any information as to the the concentration of d-limonene. The directions on the bottle of Erath's say to mix 6-8 oz. for a soil drench per gallon. That seems really high to me, and the woman at the nursery said she recommends just 2 oz. What are your thoughts? Thanks again for your reply!

Smiles,
Eric

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We are the beautiful too many,
Here in the Going, going, gone" - Greg Brown


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:54 am 
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I tried the Erath product awhile back and thought it was pretty good for garden applications. I doubt if I used a rate higher than 2 oz/gal and probably used it even weaker. Of course, the product formulations can change from batch to batch, so you'll have to see what you think with the current product. I don't think the viscosity tells much, as TKO seems to me to be similar to water. I remember wondering if the Erath product contained the broader spectrum of orange extract compounds, rather than only emulsified d-limonene. I guess it seemed to me to be a bit more oily and to smell more like orange than straight d-limonene. It could have been the emulsifiers and my olfactory imagination, but if it is more of a raw orange extract, it might be a little oily to use for some types of cleaning. It can be more expensive to refine the d-limonene from the rind extract, so it's conceivable that a garden product could contain the other components. (D-limonene has a citrus aroma, but the linalool and other volatiles round out the full orange aroma.) For the garden, I thought the Erath was fine, as was the Gardenville product. Maybe others can chime in with their experiences with it/them. If you also get the GreenSense d-limonene product, you probably can blend some into the Erath to exploit its emulsifiers. It is hard to gauge the d-limonene content in products, especially commercial cleaning products, but I'm fairly confident that the GreenSense Citrus Oil product is strictly industrial grade d-limonene. It probably contains several % of extract residues/artifacts, but it is as concentrated a d-limonene product as one is likely to find in the ordinary retail channel. For purity and value, I don't think the average garden user can do better than to buy the GreenSense product and to add coconut oil, either the GreenSense product or probably any commercially available coconut oil, as the emulsifier.

GuitarGerber wrote:
Thanks Enzym11 for the detailed answer. But, I now have another question! I found a local distributer of Erath Earth's Orange oil. It appears to me to be a pretty watery product, and I'm wondering if you know anything about it. I am going to test it's solubility when I get home. What worries me is that none of these companies give you any information as to the the concentration of d-limonene. The directions on the bottle of Erath's say to mix 6-8 oz. for a soil drench per gallon. That seems really high to me, and the woman at the nursery said she recommends just 2 oz. What are your thoughts? Thanks again for your reply!

Smiles,
Eric

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