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 Post subject: RoundUp Ready Grass
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:41 am 
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http://www.enn.com/news/2004-04-14/s_22732.asp

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:40 am 
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just curious.....do you guys know what roundup is made out of?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:57 am 
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:shock:

Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt

Here are the MSDS for all the Roundup Products.

Roundup

Chad


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:10 pm 
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yeah but what is

glycine
isopropalamine of salts
surfactant

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:38 pm 
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Scott Fl wrote:
yeah but what is

glycine
isopropalamine of salts
surfactant


I do not think I understand what you are trying to find out about Roundup but Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt is the active ingredient that makes up Roundup. If you mean is it natural to the best of my knowledge, it is not by any means natural. If you are looking for what chemicals comprise Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt I can not help you there. But it is bad stuff.

The best comparison is 20% Vinegar is the organic approach to what Roundup can accomplish, but the vinegar is safe for the environment and actually works much faster.

Chad


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:01 pm 
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Scott Fl wrote:
yeah but what is

glycine
isopropalamine of salts
surfactant


There is no free glycine in Roundup. The chemical name in the MSDS "Isopropylamine salt of N-(phosphonomethyl) glycine" identifies the single compound with the contrived name of "glyphosate." Essentially, it is an organophosphate moiety (the phosphonomethyl) bonded to the nitrogen atom on the glycine molecule. Of course, it is the phosphonomethyl moiety that makes Roundup an organophosphate herbicide. The dishonest sometimes try to minimize the composition by saying that it 'contains glycine, which is just a little ole amino acid.' By that reckoning, snake venom is just a protein like one would find at any IHOP. Exactly what the surfactant is in a given formulation is a bone of contention and a bit of a mystery, depending on the application. Roundup aside, an important issue here is the introduction of a potentially invasive supergrass, for what frankly is a mere luxury use.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:11 pm 
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Let's get a Roundup chem. analysis he-said-she-said thread going elsewhere, please. With all due respect, can we get this thread back on topic, which is about "Roundup ready grass."

IMHO, I think it's an abomination and I hope that it does not take hold. People have a right to use chems if they want, but to engineer a chem-resistant strain because you make the chem is STUPID!

The 'what if it spreads' concern is the slippery slope!

My 2 cents... :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:01 am 
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bill you are TOTALLY missing the point.......understanding what roundup is,,,,is vital to this discussion!


what does it mean to be "roundup resistant"


instead of using a multitude of herbicides on a given turf,,,,,if a turf is roundup resistant, you will be able to kil ALL the weeds with one application of roundup over the top of your turf!


pretty ingenious idea by the developers of roundup,,,,dont you think? it would render ALL other turf herbicides,,,,,,useless!

what is in roundup is very safe,,,,,the surfactant they use isnt!




that was a great text book answer on what round up is,,,,,,,but lets just say its a mild acid and salt and water!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:39 am 
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I think Billusa99 got the point pretty well.

Scott Fl wrote:
that was a great text book answer on what round up is,,,,,,,but lets just say its a mild acid and salt and water!


Instead let's just say that your chemistry background isn't very good. Roundup is an organophosphate herbicide, and it certainly doesn't act by being a mere acid in salty water. Thanks, though, for providing an example of my point about dishonesty in describing Roundup.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:07 am 
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cwilson wrote:
I do not think I understand what you are trying to find out about Roundup but Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt is the active ingredient that makes up Roundup. If you mean is it natural to the best of my knowledge, it is not by any means natural. If you are looking for what chemicals comprise Glyphosate, isopropylamine salt I can not help you there. But it is bad stuff.

The best comparison is 20% Vinegar is the organic approach to what Roundup can accomplish, but the vinegar is safe for the environment and actually works much faster.
Chad


First, to keep on topic, a genetically engineered grass is not a bad thing. Virtually all of our common plants, pets, and animal foodstuffs are genetically engineered -- the only difference is that the genetic engineering happened by selective breeding rather than in a laboratory test tube. One shouldn't be anymore worried about a strain of bent turfgrass taking over the native grass population than they should about poodles taking over the timberwolf population.

Second, to touch a bit on the subthread, I have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and worked in the environmental industry for 15 years. I want a safe, healthy planet. Yet I still can't understand some of the thinking of the "gotta' be natural" crowd. As evidenced by the posts on this thread, many don't even understand what is and isn't natural.

Roundup is a very safe chemical. It is fairly quickly broken down by microbes (without harming them) into nitrogen, carbon dioxide, phosphorous, water, and carboxylic acid (soda water). It is less toxic to animals than table salt. Yes, the probable carcinogen 1,4 dioxane sometimes occurs in minute amounts in the surfactant, but it is often present in comparable quantities in other everyday things that we use, like toothpaste, laundry detergent, and shampoo.

Third, the idea that 20% vinegar is natural just isn't true. Nowhere in nature does vinegar (synonyms: acetic acid, ethanoic acid) occur in this concentration. It's a very harsh acid. If someone believes that 20% vinegar is safe, they should try sticking their finger in it and see how long it takes to cause a burn. It's strongly anti-microbial (meaning it will kill both the good and bad bacteria in your yard) and is also toxic to wildlife. It will wreak havoc with your ecosystem. If you don't believe me, then check out this collection of toxicity studes. 20% vinegar is 200,000,000 ug/L, which is much stronger than any of the concentrations used in these studies. It not only kills fish and frogs, but kills them painfully.

In short, 20% vinegar is very nasty stuff and I would much rather used Roundup on my lawn. Sometimes "natural" isn't really very natural at all and is much worse than the "artificial" alternatives. The "all natural" crowd could stand to spend a little more time learning science and a little less time hugging trees and sticking "Visualize World Peace" bumper stickers on their cars.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:48 am 
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I'm afraid the side-effects on our environment of using Roundup, would offset the ease of eliminating weeds in a turfgrass.

Study finds low concentrations of pesticide (specifically Roundup) in envinronment reduce male fertility.
http://www.forumue.de/forumaktuell/posi ... 00003.html

Effects in human body include:
"When formulated as Roundup, it has been shown to affect enzymes found in mammals such as rats where it decreased the activity of two detoxification enzymes in the liver and intestine. "
http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosa.html

Effects of run-off from your yard on the local aquatic life:
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Che ... Id=PC33138

Examining the issue, one has to decide how important it is for you to kill weeds easily.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:12 pm 
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DallasMike2U wrote:
cwilson wrote:
First, to keep on topic, a genetically engineered grass is not a bad thing. Virtually all of our common plants, pets, and animal foodstuffs are genetically engineered -- the only difference is that the genetic engineering happened by selective breeding rather than in a laboratory test tube. One shouldn't be anymore worried about a strain of bent turfgrass taking over the native grass population than they should about poodles taking over the timberwolf population.

Evidently, the Forest Service isn't as sanquine as you are about the prospect for invasion. By the way, your benign GMO argument is specious because selective intraspecies breeding cannot attain the result you champion. Tomatoes don't crossbreed with fish.

Second, to touch a bit on the subthread, I have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and worked in the environmental industry for 15 years. I want a safe, healthy planet. Yet I still can't understand some of the thinking of the "gotta' be natural" crowd. As evidenced by the posts on this thread, many don't even understand what is and isn't natural.

Third, the idea that 20% vinegar is natural just isn't true. Nowhere in nature does vinegar (synonyms: acetic acid, ethanoic acid) occur in this concentration. It's a very harsh acid. If someone believes that 20% vinegar is safe, they should try sticking their finger in it and see how long it takes to cause a burn. It's strongly anti-microbial (meaning it will kill both the good and bad bacteria in your yard) and is also toxic to wildlife. It will wreak havoc with your ecosystem. If you don't believe me, then check out this collection of toxicity studes. 20% vinegar is 200,000,000 ug/L, which is much stronger than any of the concentrations used in these studies. It not only kills fish and frogs, but kills them painfully.


Of course 20% acetic acid does not occur naturally, but then acetic acid is a naturally occurring compound. The organophosphate herbicides are not. How do you imagine that undiluted 20% acetic acid used in a yard would contact fish and frogs? By the time it leaches/runs off from a yard application, assuming it hasn't evaporated already, it certainly isn't 20% anymore. As to the benign nature of glyphosate, I don't believe the data entirely supports your position. Using your own example, glyphosate applied to fish and frogs, the way you propose for acetic acid, can produce acute toxicity. It certainly is acutely toxic to at least some frog/tadpole species, and it is said to be fairly rough on invertebrates in general. The product can be fairly persistent in soil, particularly in sandy soil, and I've seen half-life values ranging from several days to as much as several years at the extreme. That may explain the absence of a biodegradability claim on the labels. It would be a neat trick if 20% acetic acid retained its stength in soil for that long, especially in alkaline soil. I also am not as comfortable with the breakdown fate as are you, partly because testing largely has focused on acute toxicity, not on the effects from long term exposure. I believe that is has been shown that glyphosate has a genetic mutagenic effect on human lymphic cells. You imply a direct breakdown path to the benign end products, but it isn't that simple. Monsanto fairly quicky dropped its "safe as table salt," "biodegradable," and "environmentally friendly" claims after New York state got after them. As stated earlier, the products as applied can act differently from the pure glyphosate, due to the type of surfactants involved. On a positive note, I don't believe that many would prefer 2, 4-D to glyphosate, though.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:48 pm 
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DallasMike2U wrote:
Second, to touch a bit on the subthread, I have degrees in chemistry and chemical engineering and worked in the environmental industry for 15 years. I want a safe, healthy planet. Yet I still can't understand some of the thinking of the "gotta' be natural" crowd. As evidenced by the posts on this thread, many don't even understand what is and isn't natural. ...... The "all natural" crowd could stand to spend a little more time learning science and a little less time hugging trees and sticking "Visualize World Peace" bumper stickers on their cars.


I don't recall that anybody here is wearing an "all natural" membership t-shirt. And, if you can point me to the trees being hugged, get on it!

And, if you would like to politicize this discussion, via back-handed shots, then start a thread on Daily Kos or Tacitus. You simply cheapen your argument to mere rhetoric by posting such comments. :roll:

We are, however, concerned with organic gardening and avoiding the use of unnecessary chemicals if there is a more benign, safer method. Like vinegar, which readily breaks down to its organic constituents -- and of which, most people use 10% or dilute the 20 to 10.

And for what its worth, I have degree in Biology, w/ biochem, and have worked and taken and interest in the environmental industry since I was old enough to read. That "environmental industry" is this planet I live on every day, and I don't get paid to do it by someone who has an economic interest in a possible outcome -- like the Roundup folks do.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:16 pm 
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Sorry guys but I have to jump in to defend myself a bit. I was just trying to give Scott Fl the information that was being requested. I know that 20% Vinegar does not occur naturally. I too have a chemistry background but my degree is not in chemistry. But that is not the topic. We can throw our diploma's around all day and get nowhere.

Yes, 20% Vinegar is some very strong stuff at a PH of 2.2 and will burn you. Hence the instructions on most of the bottles to wear gloves and various other PPE (Personal Protective Equipment). As well as most everyone here will tell you to wear PPE if you use it.

No, 20% Vinegar at that concentration is not naturally occuring. But vinegar is the result of fermentation of alcohol, which is the result of the fermentation of sugar and yeast. In my eyes that is about as natural as it gets. Then the concentration is achieved by removing the water. Now if you tell me I can make Roundup with ingredients I have in my cupboard and then I might believe that it is a more natural approach than vinegar. I am seriously doubting that is the case thought.

Here is a link so you can make your own vinegar. :)
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5346.html

As Billusa99 said Vinegar breaks down readily to its organic components. So if this is the case then environmental harm to aquatic animals nonexistent. Not to mention it is used as a spot treatment and not a broad spectrum treatment, as Roundup is often used.

Now if some walked up to a pond of less than about 20 gallons of water and poured a gallon of 20% Vinegar into it yes it might do some harm especially to those organisms directly under the flow.

I can pretty much tell you that the vast majority of us that use this board are not as you put it the "all natural crowd" nor are we tree huggers. You would be very surprised to find out what the vast majority of us have experience in and do for a living.

:x I hate when people judge others without even meeting them, especially since this is your first post DallasMike2U. Okay I have finished ranting and I apologize for getting off topic.

My 2 Cents,
Chad


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:40 pm 
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Evidently, the Forest Service isn't as sanquine as you are about the prospect for invasion. By the way, your benign GMO argument is specious because selective intraspecies breeding cannot attain the result you champion. Tomatoes don't crossbreed with fish.

Several plants in limited areas have already developed a resistance to glyphosphate, though not by the same pathway as the "Roundup Ready" crops. FWIW, domestic dogs are perfectly able to interbreed with wolves.

As for the Forest Service, not everyone is of the same opinion. Some are against GMO but many, like myself, recognize that a GMO is a GMO whether it occurs in a laboratory or through selective breeding.


Of course 20% acetic acid does not occur naturally, but then acetic acid is a naturally occurring compound. The organophosphate herbicides are not.

The point is not whether it occurs naturally (cyanide occurs naturally) but whether the concentration is appropriate. And, as someone else pointed out, snake venom occurs naturally. The idea that natural = safe and that the concentration of a chemical doesn't matter is just not good science. Many plants and animals produce chemicals that are toxic to other plants and animals.

How do you imagine that undiluted 20% acetic acid used in a yard would contact fish and frogs? By the time it leaches/runs off from a yard application, assuming it hasn't evaporated already, it certainly isn't 20% anymore.

I've dealt with plenty of stormwater issues in my professional life and you might be surprised at what stormwater contains and at what concentrations. If, as you say, dilution negates the effects of 20% acetic acid, then wouldn't it also negate the effects of Roundup used at much lower concentrations? Note that the studies that I linked you to showed animal toxicity at much lower concentrations than 20%. Fathead minnows -- one of the stormwater testing gold standards -- showed 50% mortality in some studies at acetic acid concentrations of less than 0.01%. A good dosing of 20% acetic acid followed by a light storm event could certainly produce concentrations of 0.01%

Besides, 20% acetic acid will definitely upset soil bacteria, which is not good organic gardening practice. One of its listed uses is as a microbiocide and a fungicide.


As to the benign nature of glyphosate, I don't believe the data entirely supports your position.

Studies, like here, show toxicity at around the same order of magnitude as does acetic acid. However, glyphosphate is generally applied in much lower concentrations than 20%, so it will be correspondingly more diluted than would acetic acid once it reaches the waterways.

The product can be fairly persistent in soil, particularly in sandy soil, and I've seen half-life values ranging from several days to as much as several years at the extreme. That may explain the absence of a biodegradability claim on the labels. It would be a neat trick if 20% acetic acid retained its stength in soil for that long, especially in alkaline soil.

You're correct that the half-life of glyphosphate is highly dependent on the type of soil that it's in. It binds heavily to clay but binds very little to sand. Acetic acid doesn't retain its strength in soil because it lowers the soil's pH. If you live in a place with acid soils (I don't :( ) then repeated use could lower the pH to the point that things wouldn't grow. I've seen spills of other acids do the same to even the alkaline soils of the Dallas area.

I also am not as comfortable with the breakdown fate as are you, partly because testing largely has focused on acute toxicity, not on the effects from long term exposure. I believe that is has been shown that glyphosate has a genetic mutagenic effect on human lymphic cells.

None of the studies that I'm aware of have stated this. The most comprehensive studies, like this, show no mutagenic effects at all.

Long-term animal studies like this show only modest effects at very high concentrations.


You imply a direct breakdown path to the benign end products, but it isn't that simple. Monsanto fairly quicky dropped its "safe as table salt," "biodegradable," and "environmentally friendly" claims after New York state got after them.

I was also responsible for EU label claims for a consumer-products company. It was easier to drop claims than it was to fight them when challenged.

As someone with heavy duty chemistry training and environmental experience, I still say that Roundup is much safer than acetic acid for both users and the environment. I've only been injured (just minor burns) from 2 chemicals in my life and one of those was by acetic acid from a leaky burette back in college. I was working under the naive assumption that "it's just vinegar so it can't hurt me" kind of thinking so I wasn't concerned when the burette leaked. It wasn't bad but my right hand was red and peeling for a week. It taught me the important lesson though that "natural" doesn't mean "benign."


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