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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:32 am 
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Location: Arlington
Since commencing an organic program for our landscaping at work, I have become slightly obsessed with getting rid of our fireants. This seemed to be the quickest way to prove that an organic program will work for the company and be worth the expense. Mornings you will find me with my two gallon watering can full of Anti Fuego solution drenching mound after mound with an attention to detail that only us engineering types seem to possess. The Anti Fuego seems to be successfull, very few mounds require a second application. One thing you notice when drenching large mounds is that it takes quite a bit of liquid to fill the cavities made by the ants. Our soil is in very bad shape and I am starting to think that maybe the fireants are doing me a favor by aerating the soil. I can only think of two negatives for having fireants, and several apparent positives.

Negatives:

1. They bite.
2. The mounds are unattractive.

Positives:

1. They aerate the soil.
2. They control ticks, fleas and termites.
3. They are a good indicator of soil quality. The better the soil, the fewer fire ant mounds.


Are there other negatives to fireant infestations? Do they affect trees when the mounds are at the trunk? Do they affect turf or other vegetation? Do they harm beneficial insects? Also, does the orange oil negatively affect trees and shrubs?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:54 am 
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Location: Arlington
After my previous post, I found this site that contains everything you ever wanted to know about fire ants, how large the fire ant problem is, and what Texas is doing to fix the problem. It is kind of light on the organic approach, but does mention it. Ya'll will have to educate me on the baits mentioned in the "organic two step" instructions. I had previously assumed these baits were not organic.

http://fireant.tamu.edu/


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 Post subject: eeeeewwwhhh!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:45 pm 
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Location: Saginaw (NW Fort Worth), Texas
:evil: all i know is those gosh darned fire ants ate their way through my peach tree. i only have one mound but my neighbors have them up and down their grapevine's and gardens. who knows? maybe they are attracted to the sugars in these fruits?

good luck to you


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:59 pm 
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Location: McKinney,TEXAS
I could go on and on about the problems that fire ants cause from eating the insulation off the wires on I35 causing all the streetlights to go out to killing baby quail that have just hatched.
The Texas A+M site you reference should be used sparingly, they recommend only chemical treatments and pooh-pooh proven organic controls even tho the organic Citrex research was done in their own labs!
The two step method they recommend is to get all the neighbors together and proceed to turn their lawns into toxic dumps. If the chemicals were so good why do we have an increasing and spreading ant population every year? Their research says that fire ants used to be territorial, now they are communal. Fire ants used to have only one queen, now there are hundreds in a single mound.
THE CHEMICALS WE HAVE BEEN DUMPING ON THEM FOR THE PAST 40 YEARS HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT ADVANCE THEIR EVOLUTION THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Tony M


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:47 pm 
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Location: Dallas,TX
AMEN! Step back from all that scholarly data and use your noggin'. If that "two step" stuff is so darned great, how come the problem keeps getting worse? Organic methods are the ONLY way to control and/or eliminate fire ants. My years of experience, even watching the beneficl effects of keeping down fleas & ticks, do not mitigate the incalculable level of damage to people, pets, wildlife, and buildings over the years. It is horrifying what they do to our wildlife.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:54 am 
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Location: Arlington
I agree that the site is predominantly recommending chemical treatments for the fire ant problem. But, if you dig deep enough, you can find some good information on organic programs. Less than what is found on this site :wink: but some good information none the less.

Here is a study using Anti Fuego that concludes it "...has substantial insecticidal properties against fire ants...". I can verify these results with my own useage as this is the first year I have actually started to get real control over our fire ant problem here at work. One plant is actually pretty much clear of all fire ant mounds. Of course, we'll have to see if that is still true after the next big rain.

http://fireant.tamu.edu/research/arr/ye ... tioner.pdf

The site is also advertizing an "organic two step" method. The bait in the first step of this program contains "spinosad". I do not know what "spinosad" is. Also, they are not very enthusiastic about this program as evidenced by the way comentary is worded.

http://fireant.tamu.edu/materials/facts ... 002rev.pdf

The site also goes into great detail (chuckfranke will like this) on how Phorid flies lay eggs inside the fire ants and the resulting maggots eat the ants from the inside out.

In the short period of time that I have been applying the organic program at work, we have seen some very substantial results. I am really looking forward to the next couple of years progress in the yard. I really appreciate this site and the help you all give this "newbe" that has a ton of questions and sometimes gets to thinking too much for his own good :D

Oh, one other thing the tamu site showed me while I was digging around is that the ants like electricity. Well I went out and checked all our main power transformers and found one that has fire ants in it. Time to call the utility company.


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 Post subject: Good Research
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:44 am 
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Location: Dallas,TX
You're really doing your homework. That's great to see, and it always pays off. Agreed, the site does include some organic methods which is a great improvement over years past.

FYI-Spinosad is a group of bacteria found in a unique location and taken for development in industry. From a research website: The active ingredient is derived from a naturally occurring soil dwelling bacterium called Saccharopolyspora spinosa, a rare actinomycete reportedly collected from soil in an abandoned rum distillery on a Caribbean Island in 1982 by a vacationing scientist. It has not been found in nature since that time, and was subsequently described as a new species.

Like Bt, it must be ingested to be effective so it has little impact on sucking and predatory insects, which is good. Its half life in soil is estimated to be 9-10 days and takes place primarily by exposure to sunlight and microbial breakdown. It makes a good insecticide and there are several products on the market and in development with it now. I am a little leery of introducing it to the environment as a whole but so far it seems to do what it should and then die out. I know people who have tested it on fire ants and other critters to great success. It is very toxic to bees, however :cry: , so I would not feel comfortable using it as a general insecticidal spray. Same as with the other general insecticides; use sparingly and with great reserve.

PS - If you will add regular application of compost tea and molasses to your soil you will see great improvement rapidly in the eradication of your fire ant problem along with soil microbe counts and health. The two are inarguably linked. Keep it up and you'll see great success, I predict! :D


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15 am 
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The Texas A+M web site that jrosto references above has a FAQ section. Here are some quotes from that section:

What is the best product for killing fire ants?
There probably is no single "best" method for managing red imported fire ants. The Texas Agricultural Extension Service does not endorse any specific products. However, educational materials produced by specialists can provide information that will allow you to make the best choice for your situation. The Extension Service can convey research ­based information on the performance of products that have been scientifically tested.

What is the "Two­Step Method" for controlling imported fire ants?
One proven method of reducing imported fire ant populations in heavily­infested home lawns and ornamental turf is called the "Two­Step Method" of fire ant control. Briefly, it's the: 1) once or twice per year broadcast application of a bait product (e.g., Amdro®, Logic®, Award®, or Ascend® and others) and waiting several days to a week before; 2) treating nuisance mounds, using an individual mound treatment, such as a dust, granule, bait or drench insecticide. Otherwise, wait for the bait treatment to take effect. This method reduces the over­reliance on use of individual mound treatments and is suitable for treating larger areas.

They say in the first response that they "do not endorse specific products". However they casually mention a few; obviously absent are any organic controls. Read on:

Which bait do I use? Baits take too long? Baits don't work.
The key to using baits is patience. Applied properly and using a fresh bait product, a broadcast application will give 80% to 90% control, rarely 100%. For instance, Amdro® is the fastest­acting, giving maximum control in 3 to 6 weeks. Logic® or Award®, when applied late in the year, may take several months to provide maximum control, but will suppress ant colonies for a year or more. One approach, for example, for heavy imported fire ant infestations is to treat with Amdro® first for fast knockdown, then come back with Logic®/Award® for longer durations control as ants start to re­infest the area some months in the future. Other baits include Siege®, Award®, Ascend®, and Raid® Fire Ant Killer.

See any recommendations here? Read on because this tap dance would make Fred Astair envious:

Are there organic methods to control them?
The problem is defining what is meant by the term, "organic." Fire ant control methods considered to be "organic" usually include cultural, physical, mechanical and biological control techniques, but also some chemical treatments are considered to be "of natural origin" such as plant­derived (botanical) insecticides. Regardless of chemical origin or preparation, the Texas Fire Ant Plan promotes the use of the "least toxic methods."

I sent them a note two years ago criticizing their total disregard of proven (at Texas A+M) university research on organic controls for fire ants. The answer I got back was, "we're looking at it". This web site has not changed, should we conclude they are still looking into it?
Tony M


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:29 pm 
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If you have ants in your peach trees, they are either not fire ants or there is something else up there that the fire ants are looking for.

Fire ants eat protein, not sugar. That has something to do with why molasses seems to work against them.

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